In the minutes of the USA Rules Committee is a proposed rules change to Start Time Reporting (see below).

I am concerned about this proposed change for several reasons.

1. The potential change was not included in any previous surveys or open to discussion other than the short comment period provided now.

2. Essentially the proposed rule change would eliminate start time reporting at all levels of US contests.

3. It would make reporting false start times nonpunishable because it is impossible to prove "Deliberate" intent. Current rules when start times are required are black and white, either the start time reported was correct or not within two minutes.

This change would move racing one step closer to being just OLC flying. Without knowing the time the other competitors start you have no idea where you stand when you are flying with others on course.

The FAI contests require start times to be reported and we would once again be moving away from International rules and damaging the US Teams competitive skills.

Racing gliders is not just about going faster, it is about racing smarter and tactics of how you fly with other are critical skills to be competitive at the International level.

If anything we should be requiring start times to be reported at US Nationals, not having them as optional as is the currnet rules. Eliminating them completely is a huge step backwards for the US racing rules and the strength of the US Teams.

Please contact the Rules Committee or leave comments here to stop this unwise change in the rules.

Tim (TT)


Current Rules
10.8.8 Start time reporting
The CD may require pilots to report their start times by radio. The following rules apply:
10.8.8.1 To avoid a penalty (Rule 12.1.4.6), a start time must be reported within 15 minutes after the start is made, and must be accurate within 2 minutes.
10.8.8.2 Beginning no later than the time of task opening, a contest official designated by the CD shall monitor the contest frequency, maintain an official list of reported start times and the time the report was received, and confirm receipt of reports.
10.8.8.3 Crews may report start times for pilots by appearing in person before the official designated by the CD.
10.8.8.4 Deliberate mis-reporting of start times can be penalized as Unsportsmanlike Conduct. (Penalty described in Rule 12.2.5.3.)



Proposed Rule
10.8.8 Start time reporting
Start time reporting is optional; such reports shall be transmitted on the contest radio frequency and should be accurate within 2 minutes. Deliberate mis-reporting of start times can be penalized as Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 3:07:44 PM UTC-5, Tim Taylor wrote:
> In the minutes of the USA Rules Committee is a proposed rules change to Start Time Reporting (see below).
>
> I am concerned about this proposed change for several reasons.
>
> 1. The potential change was not included in any previous surveys or open to discussion other than the short comment period provided now.
>
> 2. Essentially the proposed rule change would eliminate start time reporting at all levels of US contests.
>
> 3. It would make reporting false start times nonpunishable because it is impossible to prove "Deliberate" intent. Current rules when start times are required are black and white, either the start time reported was correct or not within two minutes.
>
> This change would move racing one step closer to being just OLC flying. Without knowing the time the other competitors start you have no idea where you stand when you are flying with others on course.
>
> The FAI contests require start times to be reported and we would once again be moving away from International rules and damaging the US Teams competitive skills.
>
> Racing gliders is not just about going faster, it is about racing smarter and tactics of how you fly with other are critical skills to be competitive at the International level.
>
> If anything we should be requiring start times to be reported at US Nationals, not having them as optional as is the currnet rules. Eliminating them completely is a huge step backwards for the US racing rules and the strength of the US Teams.
>
> Please contact the Rules Committee or leave comments here to stop this unwise change in the rules.
>
> Tim (TT)
>
>
> Current Rules
> 10.8.8 Start time reporting
> The CD may require pilots to report their start times by radio. The following rules apply:
> 10.8.8.1 To avoid a penalty (Rule 12.1.4.6), a start time must be reported within 15 minutes after the start is made, and must be accurate within 2 minutes.
> 10.8.8.2 Beginning no later than the time of task opening, a contest official designated by the CD shall monitor the contest frequency, maintain an official list of reported start times and the time the report was received, and confirm receipt of reports.
> 10.8.8.3 Crews may report start times for pilots by appearing in person before the official designated by the CD.
> 10.8.8.4 Deliberate mis-reporting of start times can be penalized as Unsportsmanlike Conduct. (Penalty described in Rule 12.2.5.3.)
>
>
>
> Proposed Rule
> 10.8.8 Start time reporting
> Start time reporting is optional; such reports shall be transmitted on the contest radio frequency and should be accurate within 2 minutes. Deliberate mis-reporting of start times can be penalized as Unsportsmanlike Conduct..

The original purpose of start time recording was to keep the crews involved and also to let the contest organizers know when to expect the fleet back.
It had no objective, as I recall, in providing competitors with tactical information. With fewer crews around these days, the original identified need seems to be dwindling.
UH

I agree Tim. I enjoy hearing when others start. It allows me the chance of understand how I am doing (if I have caught them, or if they have caught me) if I run into them during the task.

Its one of the only parts of most US tasks that makes me feel like I am racing. Even though it may be a wide TAT, it still gives you some idea of how its going so far. The fact is that in most tasks do not feel like like a "race" anymore. They feels like an easter egg hunt. Local knowledge is knowing where the eggs usually are hidden. Everyone fly's around the task area randomly searching for the best easter eggs.

In Minden last summer, "certain" pilots made a point of never calling in their start time. Foolishly, I always did out of respect for my wife. I would fly the whole task, sighting that same glider at various times...including final glide. For 30 minutes we flew along together to the finish. I had no idea what the situation was between us. I had to wait an hour or two to see if he started before or after and see who actually "won!" It would certainly make the flights more fun and more tactical to know your relative start times. No, I was not leeching! We kept leapfrogging each other and were out of sight most of the time! ;-)

I think the result of this proposed rule change will be that not a single pilot calls in. Not only does this make the task less exciting, but it is makes the experience for spectators less exciting. Crews have no idea when to expect you back based on the majority of our tasks including the concept of minimum time.......

Sean

Glider races (Grand Prix being the exception) are time trials and the course distance can vary by ~ 12 miles even in the case of a 2 turn AT. Granted it can be quite amusing to hear the guy you thought you were chasing take a second start, but where's the tactically important info? There isn't any..


-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 4:57:40 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I agree Tim. I enjoy hearing when others start. It allows me the chance of understand how I am doing (if I have caught them, or if they have caught me) if I run into them during the task.
>
> Its one of the only parts of most US tasks that makes me feel like I am racing. Even though it may be a wide TAT, it still gives you some idea of how its going so far. The fact is that in most tasks do not feel like like a "race" anymore. They feels like an easter egg hunt. Local knowledge is knowing where the eggs usually are hidden. Everyone fly's around the task area randomly searching for the best easter eggs.
>
> In Minden last summer, "certain" pilots made a point of never calling in their start time. Foolishly, I always did out of respect for my wife. I would fly the whole task, sighting that same glider at various times...including final glide. For 30 minutes we flew along together to the finish. I had no idea what the situation was between us. I had to wait an hour or two to see if he started before or after and see who actually "won!" It would certainly make the flights more fun and more tactical to know your relative start times. No, I was not leeching! We kept leapfrogging each other and were out of sight most of the time! ;-)
>
> I think the result of this proposed rule change will be that not a single pilot calls in. Not only does this make the task less exciting, but it is makes the experience for spectators less exciting. Crews have no idea when to expect you back based on the majority of our tasks including the concept of minimum time.......
>
> Sean

The provision for allowing start times to be called in well after the start was put in to make it viable for a pilot to call his start in for the original intended reasons while minimizing the tactical issues. It also left in the ability for pilots to have a sense of how they were doing later in the flight which many really like. Whether I like it is directly related to how I'm doing, I admit it.
If you call in 30 seconds after you start, you are either a chump or making a false start. Or----- Maybe you are letting the guy you would like to fly with know it's time to go. Hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!
The process will still be there, just a little simpler and not mandatory.
UF

I like hearing/giving start times too, but it is only useful information for the first leg of a TAT. After that it's pretty much irrelevent. Sean, even if you knew the start time of the other pilot, you would have no way of knowing how deep he/she went into the last turn point, so when you were flying neck and neck either one of you could be way ahead of the other. It's often the last pilots to land that win the day...

Matt

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 4:16:09 PM UTC-7, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> I like hearing/giving start times too, but it is only useful information for the first leg of a TAT. After that it's pretty much irrelevent. Sean, even if you knew the start time of the other pilot, you would have no way of knowing how deep he/she went into the last turn point, so when you were flying neck and neck either one of you could be way ahead of the other. It's often the last pilots to land that win the day...
>
> Matt

A crew person can report your start time, see below.

10.8.8 Start time reporting
The CD may require pilots to report their start times by radio. The following rules apply:
10.8.8.1 To avoid a penalty (Rule 12.1.4.6), a start time must be reported within 15 minutes after the start is made, and must be
accurate within 2 minutes.
10.8.8.2 Beginning no later than the time of task opening, a contest official designated by the CD shall monitor the contest
frequency, maintain an official list of reported start times and the time the report was received, and confirm receipt of reports.
10.8.8.3 Crews may report start times for pilots by appearing in person before the official designated by the CD.
10.8.8.4 Deliberate mis-reporting of start times can be penalized as Unsportsmanlike Conduct. (Penalty described in Rule 12.2.5.3.)


A different note>>>>>>>

On the World level, we reported our start time to our Team captain on our Team frequency. He then submits the time to the CD/Scorer. These start times are checked very carefully and a minor penalty can be applied. Whats extremely important is the Team Captains give precise "time hacks", so the reported time is accurate.

You do not hear when the other countries pilots start over the radio.

UH, is right, as to the "old school" thought on this. Now, at some contests, we are asked to just announce "711 start" with no time, then the CM knows we have gone out on course.

IMHO, a start time is not required, yet a simple "711 start" call should be considered.

Best. #711

It is called adapting to changed circumstances.
In the days of yore, before loggers, the time of smokey barographs and
photos a man sat on the start line recording people crossing it. The radio
call gave him a heads up so he did not miss your start. The max start
height was 3000ft because that was the maximum height he could read the
identification letter/numbers on the bottom of the wing. We have moved on,
the start line is no longer a physical feature on the ground but a lat/long
on the globe. The logger records the crossing of the line and the exact
start time, the need to call an (inaccurate) start time no longer exists so
we do not need the man on the ground recording the (inaccurate) time
anymore. The called start time is of no use, it is not used in the
calculation of the task speeds, the logger time is used for that, it is
redundant, like the max start height, and has been for many years.
Give the people who control your comps a break, and spare a thought for the
competition organisers, their life is made simpler by doing away with
redundant tasks. As a bonus it does away with a lot of radio chatter which
can be quite distracting and I would have thought of doing away with
another opportunity to fall foul of, or have to enforce, an unnecessary
rule would be greeted as a good thing. Winners don't whine :-)

Evan,

Thanks for bringing that up.

I forgot to mention this. That is that in the case of the US "version" of an an AT the rules actually (once again), dramatically different than FAI! The U.S. has found a way to molest the AT and morph it into something very different. I'm sure they call it "innovation" or something gratifying. I just say it adds needless complexity which makes it far less of a race. In the US rules, instead of leaving it as pure RACE around the same course, the AT is morphed into a mini TAT. US rules allow the age old TAT tactic of earning extra distance in the turns. Gliders ahead can max distance into the back of the turnpoint (1 mile diameter, around 2 miles extra each turn). Gliders behind can choose to catch back up to the lead gaggle by turning early, sacrificing 2 miles. This isn't a real FAI AT race. It's a mini TAT that actually regenerates the same gaggle!

No wonder you guys think ATs result in gaggles.

Why not just leave at lease one FAI task alone?

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 8:56:10 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Evan,
>
> Thanks for bringing that up.
>
> I forgot to mention this. That is that in the case of the US "version" of an an AT the rules actually (once again), dramatically different than FAI! The U.S. has found a way to molest the AT and morph it into something very different. I'm sure they call it "innovation" or something gratifying. I just say it adds needless complexity which makes it far less of a race. In the US rules, instead of leaving it as pure RACE around the same course, the AT is morphed into a mini TAT. US rules allow the age old TAT tactic of earning extra distance in the turns. Gliders ahead can max distance into the back of the turnpoint (1 mile diameter, around 2 miles extra each turn). Gliders behind can choose to catch back up to the lead gaggle by turning early, sacrificing 2 miles. This isn't a real FAI AT race. It's a mini TAT that actually regenerates the same gaggle!
>
> No wonder you guys think ATs result in gaggles.
>
> Why not just leave at lease one FAI task alone?

Next up... start line vs 10 mile diameter start cylinder.

4... 3... 2... 1...

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 3:04:01 PM UTC-8, wrote:
>
> The provision for allowing start times to be called in well after the start was put in to make it viable for a pilot to call his start in for the original intended reasons while minimizing the tactical issues. It also left in the ability for pilots to have a sense of how they were doing later in the flight which many really like. Whether I like it is directly related to how I'm doing, I admit it.
> If you call in 30 seconds after you start, you are either a chump or making a false start. Or----- Maybe you are letting the guy you would like to fly with know it's time to go. Hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!
> The process will still be there, just a little simpler and not mandatory.
> UH

To elaborate on UH's historical context - here is little insight on the logic behind this change.

The original rule came about as part of the transition from start gate/photo evidence tasking to start cylinder/GPS evidence tasking. GPS marked the demise of ground controlled, visually measured, redline dive starts. As a guy who got to man the start line (more fun when Spratt was there) or start height (Maytag repairman lonely and boring) half of the gate I can attest this was a good thing.

As mentioned, the purpose of start time reporting was to provide enjoyment, peace of mind and expectations for finish times for ground personnel by knowing when pilots went out on course, but also specifically to minimize the tactical benefit to pilots by making it very hard to follow a competitor based on a 15 minute delayed call.

With the broad adoption of various forms of sailplane tracking (including now free, smartphone based ones - funny how these different rules interact), start time reporting is now of zero incremental benefit to people on the ground - trackers are superior in just about every way imaginable.

The recording of start time reporting is not reliable enough to be enforced by rule (radio transmission/reception issues, stepped on starts, garbled reports). It is also an additional work task for contest personnel as someone needs to stand by a radio and focus on nothing but careful listening and recording of every start. Ask anyone who has done this how much fun it is. (N.B. Adding an additional requirement for positive receipt of start time reports through return radio confirmation would make this burden even worse, and for no benefit based on the original logic for the rule).

The inherent ambiguity as relates to start time reports as described above makes enforcement by rule problematic. If your start wasn't recorded on the ground does this mean you didn't try to report it from the air or it just didn't get through for some reason? What if you misread your start altitude/time in some way? What if you exit the cylinder not intending to take a start? What if your start is disallowed after the fact (say, for a 2 minute rule violation) thereby making an earlier exit from the cylinder that you didn't intend as a start to become your official start and the one that needs to be reported? (Don't laugh, these things happen and get adjudicated). 2014 pointed the problems with the rule out in spades with a long, drawn-out and man-hour intensive protest and subsequent appeals.

At the vast majority of contests I've attended (maybe 100%) the CD has gone with the default, voluntary reporting regime, yet pilots regularly report start times without being required to. That is how it usually works. Pilots report, people on the ground who care (and other pilots who care) listen, but nobody is legally responsible for recording it. This state of affairs argues against making reporting of start time information illegal outright - plus the RC is not so much in the mindset of banning things these days.

Lastly, if pilots want to track starts Flarm is a far better tool. You can see practically the entire front half of the start cylinder with Flarm and therefore see who is really taking a start rather than just reporting a cylinder exit so the whole start roulette dance is reduced.

The change simply eliminates version of the rule that, 1) is rarely, if ever, used, 2) is an additional chore for contest personnel if it is used, 3) creates enforcement problems and 4) is no longer needed for its intended purpose to be served due to technological innovations in the sport (Flarm and sailplane trackers).

Feel free to continue to report your start times (or not) as you have always done. No one is going to stand in your way if you want to and no one is going to make a Federal case out of it if you don't.

Now, back to the MAT-ness.

9B

HATness.

Some other reasons for dropping start time reporting

As Tom pointed out, pilots in IGC contests do not have the convenience of hearing when other pilots start. As Tom and I and many other US team pilots have found out, having to keep track of competitors visually is a major difference to sitting around and waiting for radio calls. The pre-start game of lions and hyenas is a key part of WGC AT tactics (Prepare for mass postings by Sean). We're terrible at it.

The RC hears regularly that we should make US contests more like IGC contests. Often we say no, because doing so compromises something else about US contests. This one seems free. If you want to follow the gaggle, you'll have to look out the window just like at the worlds. Coincidentally, it makes following the gaggle just a wee bit harder.

As Tim might know, a considerable amount of effort this year went in to resolving a protest over start time reporting. Some motivation for removing the rule is that hearing protests over start time reporting seems a rather large waste of effort.

More generally, we (or at least I) am on a big simplification kick. You might say that it's only a few lines of rules, but simplification means taking every single line and seeing if it's worthwhile. Simplifying US rules is going to be like simplifying the US tax code. We all think the rules are horrible, but propose one specific rule like this one, and out come the howls on RAS.

Another principle sneaking in to the rules. If we don't want to hear proteststs about it, or enable a protest, then it shouldn't be a rule. This year there was a big "shall" vs. "should" revision in the rules (thanks John Good).

A slightly less delicate view of history. In the good old days, you knew when to start when you heard "KS, IP" or "DJ IP" on the radio. You had to watch out for them returning to try again, but otherwise life was easy. At least when you heard the chorus of lemmings you knew the gaggle was off. When we introduced the GPS start, a big howl of protest amounted, essentially, to "but now I won't know when to start." The real reason start time reporting went in was to accommodate such pilots. RC does try to make pilots happy.. All this business about keeping crews interested and organizers informed mattered a wee little bit, but not a whole lot. Individual crews could always hear from their pilot on 123.5.

Well, times have changed, and as Sean keeps reminding us, US contests are down the toilet of almost all MAT and TAT where following KS and DJ isn't so important. Plus, we've all got flarm radar now (whoops, I let the cat out of the bag, here comes UH!). And the crews (both of them, bless their hearts) have the ever better tracking screen.

Furthermore, it seems strange to have rules banning radio communication for strategic reasons (at nationals), but allowing, nay mandating, one of the most important ones. We all know that a call "BB, start 12:02" issued at "12:02:01" means "I'm going now if anyone wants to go together" -- and specifically teammates and buddies. Why mandate this and ban "I've got 6 knots over the pinenuts?"

Have I beat this to death? I hope so. Start silently, simplify rules.

John Cochrane

If the IGC does not require reporting, I am OK with adopting their policy. Is that a first in the US? ;-)

At the end of the day, this is a small thing. I can't understand half of the radio calls anyway.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 3:24:53 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> If the IGC does not require reporting, I am OK with adopting their policy.. Is that a first in the US? ;-)
>
> At the end of the day, this is a small thing. I can't understand half of the radio calls anyway.

Start times are reported by the team captain, or designee, to the officials.. It is not done over the radio.
There is a lot of intrigue during the start period as teams try to figure out what the other guys are doing. Our team captain in Musbach (Dianne) was quite good at figuring out some of the code. It was helpful to get a call saying "our friends are going in 5 minutes". But- that is a different game than we play here.
FWIW
UH

As of WGC 2014 in Leszno (and maybe Finland) there was no start time reporting.

In the past, yes, you called your team captain and he submitted a paper start time to the scoring office.

In Leszno - none - they took it all from the IGC file. The reporting rule is gone.

As of WGC 2014 in Leszno (and probably Finland too) there was no start time reporting.

In the past, yes, you called your team captain and he submitted a paper start time to the scoring office.

In Leszno - none - they took it all from the IGC file. The reporting rule is gone at WGC.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 2:20:07 PM UTC-8, Dave Springford wrote:
> As of WGC 2014 in Leszno (and probably Finland too) there was no start time reporting.
>
> In the past, yes, you called your team captain and he submitted a paper start time to the scoring office.
>
> In Leszno - none - they took it all from the IGC file. The reporting rule is gone at WGC.

In Finland we reported our start times to the team captain.

Sean Franke

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 12:45:11 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
> Some other reasons for dropping start time reporting
>
> As Tom pointed out, pilots in IGC contests do not have the convenience of hearing when other pilots start. As Tom and I and many other US team pilots have found out, having to keep track of competitors visually is a major difference to sitting around and waiting for radio calls. The pre-start game of lions and hyenas is a key part of WGC AT tactics (Prepare for mass postings by Sean). We're terrible at it.
>
> The RC hears regularly that we should make US contests more like IGC contests. Often we say no, because doing so compromises something else about US contests. This one seems free. If you want to follow the gaggle, you'll have to look out the window just like at the worlds. Coincidentally, it makes following the gaggle just a wee bit harder.
>
> As Tim might know, a considerable amount of effort this year went in to resolving a protest over start time reporting. Some motivation for removing the rule is that hearing protests over start time reporting seems a rather large waste of effort.
>
> More generally, we (or at least I) am on a big simplification kick. You might say that it's only a few lines of rules, but simplification means taking every single line and seeing if it's worthwhile. Simplifying US rules is going to be like simplifying the US tax code. We all think the rules are horrible, but propose one specific rule like this one, and out come the howls on RAS.
>
> Another principle sneaking in to the rules. If we don't want to hear proteststs about it, or enable a protest, then it shouldn't be a rule. This year there was a big "shall" vs. "should" revision in the rules (thanks John Good).
>
> A slightly less delicate view of history. In the good old days, you knew when to start when you heard "KS, IP" or "DJ IP" on the radio. You had to watch out for them returning to try again, but otherwise life was easy. At least when you heard the chorus of lemmings you knew the gaggle was off. When we introduced the GPS start, a big howl of protest amounted, essentially, to "but now I won't know when to start." The real reason start time reporting went in was to accommodate such pilots. RC does try to make pilots happy. All this business about keeping crews interested and organizers informed mattered a wee little bit, but not a whole lot. Individual crews could always hear from their pilot on 123.5.
>
> Well, times have changed, and as Sean keeps reminding us, US contests are down the toilet of almost all MAT and TAT where following KS and DJ isn't so important. Plus, we've all got flarm radar now (whoops, I let the cat out of the bag, here comes UH!). And the crews (both of them, bless their hearts) have the ever better tracking screen.
>
> Furthermore, it seems strange to have rules banning radio communication for strategic reasons (at nationals), but allowing, nay mandating, one of the most important ones. We all know that a call "BB, start 12:02" issued at "12:02:01" means "I'm going now if anyone wants to go together" -- and specifically teammates and buddies. Why mandate this and ban "I've got 6 knots over the pinenuts?"
>
> Have I beat this to death? I hope so. Start silently, simplify rules.
>
> John Cochrane

John the US tax code is not fixable. It needs to be rewritten...